It wasn't until I started experiencing trauma in my adult life that I realized that the need to make art was very real. It was magnified because of the trying circumstances. I am thankful, in small ways -for now- for the misery. It brought into focus what things are critical. My relationships with God and people and making things. It all became pretty simple. I think the reason for that was there wasn't the abundance of the mediocre. There was survival and glimmers of joy. Stark highs and lows. It can be very revealing. My point is, through hardship, I have realized that the need to make things wasn't just a personality thing but a deep need and critical to who I am as a person, mate and mother. My very existence requires that I create. I think I didn't want to say that for a long time because it sounded dramatic, but now I see it's not and it is required. I am so thankful I subscribed, Austin. I have enjoyed your books for years, but now come the years of putting into practice, with more intention, what I have enjoyed reading for so long. Thank you for sharing what you share and keeping secret what you keep secret.
Oh! I forgot to mention, I absolutely loved your vulnerability about your studio. I too, have worked out of whatever space is available, not necessarily dedicated to my craft, until now. When you mentioned you had that feeling of "do I really deserve this?", I completely connected with that. I recently have gotten my first art studio. A room dedicated 100% to making things. Not slapped together but created and formed with much thought and intention. It's so very special to me. I am excited every day to walk in here. There is much anticipation. So, when you said your wife told you that you just had to mess it up and make it your own, that stuck with me. I was enthralled with looking at your studio while you were talking. It was so enjoyable. And the "cockpit" analogy was on point. That is exactly what it looked like... the cockpit of a creator.
Loved this convo so much, i subscribed. I originally bought your book "show your work" for my artistically intelligent daughter to encourage her to get her work out there and to learn to let it go. I now have a whole different understanding when you likened it to the maths analogy of dont just give the solution. I will have to relisten and watch on my laptop with a noteook - i listened first time on my mobile 8am Sunday morning before getting up to start my day in Ireland on carer duties while missing family back home in Aus on fathers day (over there). It was a real pick me up - obituaries are awesome, but I felt i only had the right to hear them, if I was connected well enough to the person to be invited to their funeral - now that I have permission - they are my new reading list. Thanks for creating the space for me to think about my own prequel as well as my very own afterword.
Wow Austin (and Beth) - such an amazingly great interview/chat/session- Austin, you, your work, your words and your vibe are so refreshingly authentic - a treat and a joy- 🙏
I love this interview! I'm going to have to listen to this twice. Between the idea of the second soul, the pain of not creating, staying small to be safe and not wanting to be a doctor to please my parents, this is amazingly helpful.
I loved watching your video chat with Beth Pickens, it was very inspiring. I reached out to a painter friend who also struggles to do their work sometimes, and we've decided to start a small support group which we hope will grow to up to 5 or 6, to encourage each other and take turns hosting events like figure drawing or plein air painting, or having exhibits. I love getting your newsletter every week, your energy is infectious. Thank you!
I just watched this morning... wish I had seen it happening live. But, the replay allows me to back up the conversation to catch words I missed or thoughts I want to write down. I took about five pages, plus a little, of notes. I don't write small so it isn't as bad as it sounds. But I laughed when you talked about the quotes you save. I think I have mentioned in a comment before I have documents with quotes... even a shortcut link on my desktop I can click to immediately open a document and I can add something right at the top. So, those five pages are full of ideas for me and quotes. Thanks for the replay!
What are the things and practices you keep for yourself? What is holding you back that you need to release? Having hit the age of 60, I have gotten much better at letting things go. We don't have kids and I know that most of my stuff will land in a giant dumpster when I'm gone. I have become OK with that. It helps me let go of things that don't give me pleasure. I recently came across a TV show on Peacock called The Gentle Art of Death Cleaning. It's a Swedish practice of letting go of what no longer serves you and allows you to move forward and live your life in the present. I've only watched one episode, but it seemed to be a combination of We Will Die, Impress Two People, and It's all an inside job.
Over the last couple of years, I have been learning about Human Design (Sort of astrology on steroids.) I have learned a lot about myself in learning more about it and my own chart. It helped me give myself permission to embrace who I truly am and let go of the parts that I inherited or was trained to be. A big part of that has been doing the inside work and moving my body. It has been embracing my own cockpit of an office (Gemini here, too) and let go of worrying about what others think.
I practice Tai Chi as a form of slow movement and mediation. This year, I became certified as an instructor. I love it, and yet, teaching it is very different than practicing it. I need to keep both forms in my life. This is a practice that I have made public and need to keep for myself.
Thank you for the thought overload. IT dovetails nicely with where I am in my life and the things that I'm learning and trying out.
OMG -- I also read the obituaries -- for many of the same reasons you cited. I also get a “chuckle” out of them because after we die, it seems everyone becomes a saint.
Two things really jumped out at me from the Zoom session:
1. "Ask. Don't say no on behalf of someone." I'm waaaay too guilty of this.
2. "Impress 2 people: your teenage self and you at the furthest reaches of life" This really resonated with me. I've been thinking a lot about me as a teen, even re-reading old diary entries from back then. In many ways, my creative life now is a continuation of my teenage years before life (college, marriage, kids, career) intervened. As a teenager I was so curious and experimental, just making weird stuff for the fun of it. I'm striving for more of that in my life.
I feel like I'm trying to do something similar—not that I was ever an artist in any sense. But up until my mid- to late-twenties, I engaged more in creative pursuits than I have in the last couple of decades, mainly due to job duties and maintaining a career in software development. I'm trying to get back to that aspect of myself—spinning my wheels a bit, we'll see where it goes. Best of luck in your journey!
Yeah, this has been part of my middle-age project, too, reconnecting with teenage me, not being embarrassed, but honoring that experience. Nostalgia can be strengthening *if* we can bring some things back from the past to nourish our current work
Question comes from a trauma therapy approach where I invited the 13-year-old Emily to live with me and realized she’d love the nooks & crannies & slanted attic ceiling & alllll the supplies & Legos & books.
Similar story here (but very late middle age :) Maybe the trick is to keep one foot in the present with a clear-eyed look to the past, along the lines of the Box Brown He-man book—I think you can still express your fondness for something ("He-man was and is cool and and was and is important to me") while in the present day, acknowledging its flaws ("it was a targeted and manipulative set of products that are still being leveraged today")
Great conversation. The idea that stood out most to me was the concept of creative "Tension" in the work. I think there's a fine balance between honesty-openness & mystery-honoring your inner life. As a contemplative christian, I tend to think of my (eternal) soul as a big space that my (temporary) small body gets to live in while I'm alive here on earth. My soul has rooms for others to come visit-- but not all the time. And not every room. I love that you keep your collage-making practice private, Austin. It's a "place" inside your creative soul where you can go sit down and make something to share-- in the *way* that feels *best* to you. You and Beth have given me some juicy inspiration to chew on-- thanks for the replay for people who couldn't attend the live Zoom.
I've been reading a lot of Jung recently, and he talks about holding the "tension of opposites" a ton. I was first introduced to the idea by Iain McGilchrist. (He uses "the coincidence of opposites" which I think is tricky because people think "coincidence" means by chance, when it's really coinciding, as in, simultaneously being present.) https://austinkleon.com/2021/10/26/iain-mcgilchrist-on-the-coincidence-of-opposites/
Jung is fascinating for artists (the dreamwork, the archetypical imagery) Thanks for the James Hollis interview you suggested last week. I appreciated his clarity on moving from the first to the second half of life. Generous, actionable ideas delivered with honesty and kindness-- and still in love with his (second!) vocation. His patients are lucky to have him.
I didn’t remember signing up for convo but saw the link in my email and watched yesterday afternoon...so glad I did. Thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. So many good take aways. My favorite the same as yours...I’ve not long claimed myself an artist by any means...and have arrived at accepting I am by way of the back door...I felt her words deeply when she spoke about the self suffering without their practice. I’ve not always considered my creative pursuits/ponderings my practice but I know I don’t feel quite right, or myself when I’m not giving room to them. For so long I’ve thought my brain, my way of thinking and need for expression were faults...I’m only now learning/accepting it may just be I’m an artist. Anyhoo...great convo...enjoyed it so so much!
I love the idea of a book called "Death and Deadlines." If you write it I will read it.
I once made a compilation CD I titled "Death and Taxes" and gave it to friends for Christmas. Some people found it disturbing, but I'm glad it's sort of normal for artists!
I immediately signed up for Homework Club after watching this conversation!
It wasn't until I started experiencing trauma in my adult life that I realized that the need to make art was very real. It was magnified because of the trying circumstances. I am thankful, in small ways -for now- for the misery. It brought into focus what things are critical. My relationships with God and people and making things. It all became pretty simple. I think the reason for that was there wasn't the abundance of the mediocre. There was survival and glimmers of joy. Stark highs and lows. It can be very revealing. My point is, through hardship, I have realized that the need to make things wasn't just a personality thing but a deep need and critical to who I am as a person, mate and mother. My very existence requires that I create. I think I didn't want to say that for a long time because it sounded dramatic, but now I see it's not and it is required. I am so thankful I subscribed, Austin. I have enjoyed your books for years, but now come the years of putting into practice, with more intention, what I have enjoyed reading for so long. Thank you for sharing what you share and keeping secret what you keep secret.
Oh! I forgot to mention, I absolutely loved your vulnerability about your studio. I too, have worked out of whatever space is available, not necessarily dedicated to my craft, until now. When you mentioned you had that feeling of "do I really deserve this?", I completely connected with that. I recently have gotten my first art studio. A room dedicated 100% to making things. Not slapped together but created and formed with much thought and intention. It's so very special to me. I am excited every day to walk in here. There is much anticipation. So, when you said your wife told you that you just had to mess it up and make it your own, that stuck with me. I was enthralled with looking at your studio while you were talking. It was so enjoyable. And the "cockpit" analogy was on point. That is exactly what it looked like... the cockpit of a creator.
Loved this convo so much, i subscribed. I originally bought your book "show your work" for my artistically intelligent daughter to encourage her to get her work out there and to learn to let it go. I now have a whole different understanding when you likened it to the maths analogy of dont just give the solution. I will have to relisten and watch on my laptop with a noteook - i listened first time on my mobile 8am Sunday morning before getting up to start my day in Ireland on carer duties while missing family back home in Aus on fathers day (over there). It was a real pick me up - obituaries are awesome, but I felt i only had the right to hear them, if I was connected well enough to the person to be invited to their funeral - now that I have permission - they are my new reading list. Thanks for creating the space for me to think about my own prequel as well as my very own afterword.
This was fantastic, wish I caught the Zoom meeting live. Defintely will be picking up both books to read.
Art or no art, I def need more of a death acceptance practice. haha.
The whole culture does!
Wow Austin (and Beth) - such an amazingly great interview/chat/session- Austin, you, your work, your words and your vibe are so refreshingly authentic - a treat and a joy- 🙏
I love this interview! I'm going to have to listen to this twice. Between the idea of the second soul, the pain of not creating, staying small to be safe and not wanting to be a doctor to please my parents, this is amazingly helpful.
I loved watching your video chat with Beth Pickens, it was very inspiring. I reached out to a painter friend who also struggles to do their work sometimes, and we've decided to start a small support group which we hope will grow to up to 5 or 6, to encourage each other and take turns hosting events like figure drawing or plein air painting, or having exhibits. I love getting your newsletter every week, your energy is infectious. Thank you!
I just watched this morning... wish I had seen it happening live. But, the replay allows me to back up the conversation to catch words I missed or thoughts I want to write down. I took about five pages, plus a little, of notes. I don't write small so it isn't as bad as it sounds. But I laughed when you talked about the quotes you save. I think I have mentioned in a comment before I have documents with quotes... even a shortcut link on my desktop I can click to immediately open a document and I can add something right at the top. So, those five pages are full of ideas for me and quotes. Thanks for the replay!
WOW! Thoughts are swirling in my head.
What are the things and practices you keep for yourself? What is holding you back that you need to release? Having hit the age of 60, I have gotten much better at letting things go. We don't have kids and I know that most of my stuff will land in a giant dumpster when I'm gone. I have become OK with that. It helps me let go of things that don't give me pleasure. I recently came across a TV show on Peacock called The Gentle Art of Death Cleaning. It's a Swedish practice of letting go of what no longer serves you and allows you to move forward and live your life in the present. I've only watched one episode, but it seemed to be a combination of We Will Die, Impress Two People, and It's all an inside job.
Over the last couple of years, I have been learning about Human Design (Sort of astrology on steroids.) I have learned a lot about myself in learning more about it and my own chart. It helped me give myself permission to embrace who I truly am and let go of the parts that I inherited or was trained to be. A big part of that has been doing the inside work and moving my body. It has been embracing my own cockpit of an office (Gemini here, too) and let go of worrying about what others think.
I practice Tai Chi as a form of slow movement and mediation. This year, I became certified as an instructor. I love it, and yet, teaching it is very different than practicing it. I need to keep both forms in my life. This is a practice that I have made public and need to keep for myself.
Thank you for the thought overload. IT dovetails nicely with where I am in my life and the things that I'm learning and trying out.
Wow, these images are super exciting! I'd love to read one of her books - any recommendation on which one to start with?
OMG -- I also read the obituaries -- for many of the same reasons you cited. I also get a “chuckle” out of them because after we die, it seems everyone becomes a saint.
Two things really jumped out at me from the Zoom session:
1. "Ask. Don't say no on behalf of someone." I'm waaaay too guilty of this.
2. "Impress 2 people: your teenage self and you at the furthest reaches of life" This really resonated with me. I've been thinking a lot about me as a teen, even re-reading old diary entries from back then. In many ways, my creative life now is a continuation of my teenage years before life (college, marriage, kids, career) intervened. As a teenager I was so curious and experimental, just making weird stuff for the fun of it. I'm striving for more of that in my life.
I feel like I'm trying to do something similar—not that I was ever an artist in any sense. But up until my mid- to late-twenties, I engaged more in creative pursuits than I have in the last couple of decades, mainly due to job duties and maintaining a career in software development. I'm trying to get back to that aspect of myself—spinning my wheels a bit, we'll see where it goes. Best of luck in your journey!
Thanks, you too!
Yeah, this has been part of my middle-age project, too, reconnecting with teenage me, not being embarrassed, but honoring that experience. Nostalgia can be strengthening *if* we can bring some things back from the past to nourish our current work
How would your teenage you feel in your studio?
Question comes from a trauma therapy approach where I invited the 13-year-old Emily to live with me and realized she’d love the nooks & crannies & slanted attic ceiling & alllll the supplies & Legos & books.
Similar story here (but very late middle age :) Maybe the trick is to keep one foot in the present with a clear-eyed look to the past, along the lines of the Box Brown He-man book—I think you can still express your fondness for something ("He-man was and is cool and and was and is important to me") while in the present day, acknowledging its flaws ("it was a targeted and manipulative set of products that are still being leveraged today")
Great conversation. The idea that stood out most to me was the concept of creative "Tension" in the work. I think there's a fine balance between honesty-openness & mystery-honoring your inner life. As a contemplative christian, I tend to think of my (eternal) soul as a big space that my (temporary) small body gets to live in while I'm alive here on earth. My soul has rooms for others to come visit-- but not all the time. And not every room. I love that you keep your collage-making practice private, Austin. It's a "place" inside your creative soul where you can go sit down and make something to share-- in the *way* that feels *best* to you. You and Beth have given me some juicy inspiration to chew on-- thanks for the replay for people who couldn't attend the live Zoom.
In case you missed them, here's a tag of all the newsletters I've written about "creative tensions" in the past year: https://austinkleon.substack.com/t/creative-tensions
I've been reading a lot of Jung recently, and he talks about holding the "tension of opposites" a ton. I was first introduced to the idea by Iain McGilchrist. (He uses "the coincidence of opposites" which I think is tricky because people think "coincidence" means by chance, when it's really coinciding, as in, simultaneously being present.) https://austinkleon.com/2021/10/26/iain-mcgilchrist-on-the-coincidence-of-opposites/
Jung is fascinating for artists (the dreamwork, the archetypical imagery) Thanks for the James Hollis interview you suggested last week. I appreciated his clarity on moving from the first to the second half of life. Generous, actionable ideas delivered with honesty and kindness-- and still in love with his (second!) vocation. His patients are lucky to have him.
I didn’t remember signing up for convo but saw the link in my email and watched yesterday afternoon...so glad I did. Thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. So many good take aways. My favorite the same as yours...I’ve not long claimed myself an artist by any means...and have arrived at accepting I am by way of the back door...I felt her words deeply when she spoke about the self suffering without their practice. I’ve not always considered my creative pursuits/ponderings my practice but I know I don’t feel quite right, or myself when I’m not giving room to them. For so long I’ve thought my brain, my way of thinking and need for expression were faults...I’m only now learning/accepting it may just be I’m an artist. Anyhoo...great convo...enjoyed it so so much!
It's one of those things I can't believe it took me so long to figure out. Better late than never!
I love the idea of a book called "Death and Deadlines." If you write it I will read it.
I once made a compilation CD I titled "Death and Taxes" and gave it to friends for Christmas. Some people found it disturbing, but I'm glad it's sort of normal for artists!
I even have the cover drawn out with a big skull and an ampersand in the middle of the words. haha